TETE A TETE WITH Ronald Machado - (friend of Garrincha)

Sourabh Datta Gupta

 During the world cup 2002 I had the opportunity to watch the world cup with the ambassador of Brazil in India, Ms Vera Berrouin Machado.

She had invited me to see the matches in the embassy, after I wrote a letter to them.







There was real carnival when Brazil won the world cup, right in the embassy, pastires were brought from Oberoi hotels and we learnt Samba dance, while juggling the football .



We got some flag of Brazil, which i preserved even today in 2012.







I had the opportunity to meet her husband Ronald Machado and interview this immensely lovable and down to earth person. His father, Alcino Machado, was Director, Finance of Brazil’s one of the most famous clubs Botafogo, the club for which Garrincha used to play. As a result he was a personal friend of Didi (voted the best the best player of 1958 world cup by the press), Garrincha ,one of the greatest right out ever, Pele, Tostao, Leonardo ,Socrates, Zico, Joao Saldanha etc to name a few. He has in fact played with Didi, Garrincha . A civil engineer by profession ,he is an encyclopedia and authority on Brazilian football. He has seen almost all the matches Pele played in Maracana stadium The interview was taken in two days. On the first day he had an appointment in the Cuban embassy at 5 pm. The interview started at 4pm and ultimately (abruptly!!) ended at 7.40 pm, when somebody reminded him that it is very late for the party. He gave me some rare cassettes of Garrincha !

My picture came in Indian Express during the world cup and also the picture of Ronald Machado !

 My name also appeared in the Indian Express.
















SDG: When did you play for Botafogo?

RM : Till 1960 I have played for Botafogo in the junior team. But I chose civil engineering as my profession after that.

SDG :Tell me about the footballers you have played with?

RM :Garrincha, Didi, Kaka, Vava etc.

SDG :Tell me about your experience with Didi, Garrincha, Pele?

RM :Every Sunday we used to play. Didi, Garrincha used to come there to play with us.

Didi was a very good friend of mine. Didi’s capability to score from free kick was quite exceptional. He used to hit the ball on the valve. There was a Goalkeeper, Pompeia, from America(a team in Brazil).He was very confident. He used to say I don’t need a wall to save goal. Before the match, Didi told me “look Ronald if I get the free kick in front of the goal I am going to score the goal.” As luck would have it he got a free kick in front of the goal. Didi used to hit the ball on the valve. As a result the velocity of the ball used to change .He invented this technique. He applied the same technique while shooting the ball. The ball changed velocity just in front of him, and fell like folha sica ( like dry leaf) and went inside the ball between Pompeia’s two legs.(he was very excited to explain the point. In fact he got up and shown it to me how it went inside) He was so embarrassed.

Garrincha was a very pure guy, very, very simple person. He was never a PR man like Pele He was born in a very poor family in Rio. His father worked in fabrice (factory),built by the English. Garrincha also worked in the factory when he was 15-18.But he was basically paid salary to play for the fabrice football team. The fabrice sponsored the football team . However his alcohol problem was always there, long before he left the game(which many people does not know) .He had a minor problem with his leg ( bow shaped). As a result he used to stand like a crippled person(he got up and shown it to me).So when he was 18, he first went to the Vasco Da Gama club , for the trial, coach did not allow him to play even in the trial match!!!!!!. When the coach saw him he said “you are out”.

Eventually when he was 20(57’-58’) went to Botafogo for trial. On that day, Friday, I was present in the stadium, since I was a regular visitor in the club. So I saw it in my own eyes. In the trial in the opponent team was Nilton Santos, one of the greatest ever defenders. The first ball Garrincha got dribbled Nilton Santos with a faint, as though he is a novice. Nilton Santos looked at him in disdain . The next ball he got again dribbled him in the similar fashion and made the perfect centre from which the striker scored the first goal. Then Nilton Santos immediately stopped game and told the management that make contract with him immediately. In those days there was hardly anybody who dared to disagree with Nilton Santos.

Another incident I distinctly remember about Garrincha. It was in 1963.By that time Garrincha was a household name all over the world (since 1962 world cup was called Garrincha’s world cup) .We were driving towards Petro Polis, which was 70 Km from Rio de Janeiro, for a soccer match. Suddenly we saw Garrincha driving Volkswagen, he was going towards Paulo Grande. When he saw me he said “Hi Ronald”. We requested him to go along with us and play the match. He went with us and played for 15-20 minutes. Of course everybody said it is not fair that Garrincha is in your team! He was very simple. It was not for him to “show”.

SDG :Who do you think is better player Pele or Maradona?

RM :I have seen almost all the matches Pele has played in Maracana stadium. I have seen Pele making one or two small mistakes. But I never seen him playing badly. On the basis of what I have seen I can tell you Pele was better player. Pele used to dribble in high speed. Pele played somewhat like Ronaldo. We have hardly seen any of the matches of Pele. In those days telecasting of most of the matches were not done. It is difficult to know today what he had done match after match. But Maradona’s passing was probably better.

SDG :What is your opinion about Puskas?

RM : He was a very intelligent player, methodical player. But South American skill was more refined. Our skill was more natural, more spontaneous. In Europe tactics was more important. There was a Hungarian team called Hovard. It was a very good team .Nobody wanted to play against Hovard. In fact FIFA banned the team to go out of the country, during the communist regime. Hovard played two matches against Botafogo and Flamengo.

SDG :Which Brazilian team do you think is the best?

RM : The Brazilian team of 1970 was the best. Although they appear to be bit slow in today’s standard. But they would have changed their game accordingly. In those days players played for fun. Today it is not so. In those days to put a Co name in one’s jersey tantamount to blasphemy.

SDG: Have you seen Indian football?

RM :Yes

SDG: what do you think is the reason why India is so lagging behind in football? What are the remedies?

RM :There is no sponsor for football. Moreover it is not a profession in India. In Brazil footballers practice 8 hrs a day. After the morning practice they take rest in the club, take their food. Again they start doing physical exercise, hone their skills etc. There is accommodation facility in the club. They need not commute from their home daily. A club should have a team of Doctor, Physio, Massager and properly trained coach. Each constituent of the team is important. Coach cannot play the role of all of them. The type of exercise that is required to be done by a forward is different from the one that is done by a defender. There is a social security system for all players playing for different clubs.

SDG :What is the lifestyle of ordinary footballers from lesser known clubs? Do they lead a miserable life, like footballers from small clubs India ?

RM :Brazil has got 25 states. Almost all states have their clubs and championships. So even if they can’t play for big clubs in Sao Paulo or Rio de Janeiro, there are opportunities in other states. Moreover big Companies also recruit good footballers .And Brazilian footballers are much in demand outside Brazil also.

SDG : Tell me something about Brazilians schools, education and attitude of parents towards their ward taking football as their profession?

RM: In Brazil public schools are very expensive, although there are many categories. But public schools are free. So poor people mostly study in public schools. But medium of education and course is same everywhere: that is Portuguese, unlike a country like India .These days education is given even to remote places through TV . English is studied for 1 yr only.

At the university level, there are Pvt universities, State universities, Federal universities.

In Brazilian education system Physical education is very important. If you do not pass physical education you can’t pass. To pass you have to pass in physical education ,just like passing ,say, Mathematics. The Brazilians parents are very open to their ward choosing sports as their career

SDG: In Brazil is there any football academy like that of Germany, where kids in the age group of 5-12 are being trained?

RM : Previously only clubs used to have academies. Now there are two types academies : run by club(free) and pvt academies, run by Zico, Junior, Socrates, Leonardo. The consent of the parents is required before joining the academy. Normally the cut off age is 9-10 years. But contract is possible only after the age of 18.After that contract one cannot go to any club without the consent of the academy.

SDG: Which part of brazil has contributed maximum no players?

RM :After Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro ,it is Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Porto Alegre (e.g. Ronaldinho),Salvador(e.g. Rivaldo)

SDG: Is it the favelas (sort of slum in Brazil) which has produced most of the big players?

RM :Not necessarily. They are in the hills surrounding the great cities. The condition of favelas is not as bad as it made out to be. They have all the facilities like electricity, fridge, TV etc. It is also true that normally bandits live in these favelas. The best banks has its presence in favelas. They do repays the loans. Unlike India the lands are registered. So they pay Municipal Taxes.

SDG: Tell me about the famous 4 th goal of Carlos Alberto in 1970 World cup final, where Pele passed the ball to Alberto without even seeing him? People used to say that Pele has an eye at the back of his head, with which he can see the whole field?

RM :Do you how he has given that pass? Pele’s Peripheral vision was exceptional. Dr Hilton Gosling, Botafogo Doctor , tested the peripheral vision of all the players. He found that peripheral of Pele is 109 degree!!!!!

SDG: Which is according to you the best team you have seen?

RM :With players like Pele, Zito, Mauro, Pepe, Coutinho Santos team, in 1960s,without any doubt.

SDG: Which is according you is the best World XII?

RM :Lev Yashin , Nilton Santos, Facheti, Baresi, Jalma Santos ,Beckenbauer, Rivelino, Pele, Maradona, Cryuff.

SDG :Who according to you is the best coach you have seen?

RM :Zagallo. He was very intelligent. He played for Botafogo. He in fact invented 4-3-3 system . Zito was in the midfield. He played in the left out, but in little withdrawal position. So he opened the space (in absence of 4 th player in the upfront in 4-2-4 system) and drew the opponent player.

SDG: Is football losing popularity to other sports in brazil?

RM :No. But in Brazil beach volleyball is very popular. Brazil has been twice Olympic champion as well as World cup champion. Apart from that motor racing and tennis is also popular.

SDG : Tell me something about Brazilians schools, education and attitude of parents towards their ward taking football as their profession?

RM: In Brazil public schools are very expensive, although there are many categories. But public schools are free. So poor people mostly study in public schools. But medium of education and course is same everywhere: that is Portuguese, unlike a country like India .These days education is given even to remote places through TV . English is studied for 1 yr only.

At the university level, there are Pvt universities, State universities, Federal universities.

In Brazilian education system Physical education is very important. If you do not pass physical education you can’t pass. To pass you have to pass in physical education ,just like passing ,say, Mathematics. The Brazilians parents are very open to their ward choosing sports as their career

SDG: Is it not paradoxical that brazil is a poor country but still it produced so many formula I,II etc champions?

RM :Statistics often give wrong figures. Brazil has a big middle class. Even many people staying in favelas have got cars. Before working one has to sign work book. Statistics are based on this work book. There are many people who are staying favelas who does not sign the work book, so the statistics never the real picture.

However interior of Brazil is different. People over there are really poor. But again a miniscule percentage of population stay in the interiors. The capital of Brazil ,Brasilia, in the interior of Brazil was built to ease the population density around the costal areas and also for even development of parts of Brazil.

SDG: Is it true that people move out of Brasilia during weekends?

RM : Previously People(govt servants) used to go to Rio and adjoining areas from Brasilia by plain during week ends due to lack of entertainment .Now it is different. Now there very many supermarkets and lot of entertainments. Now people no longer go to other places for entertainment. We were in Brazil from 1980-87,but we have hardly gone to Rio from Brasilia.

SDG: What is the perception of India among the common Brazilians?

RM :India as such is not well known in Brazil. But some people come to India for Sai Baba, Rajneesh. They are very popular among the mystic population .In fact I came to India first in 1970.We were invited by Sarabhai (in Mumbai).In fact I gave a big speech on India in Rio de Janeiro. People were spellbound during my lecture. They used to say ,Oh India!!! We have to visit India! In fact there are beers named Brahma and Krishna in Brazil!

SDG: Which part of India have you visited ? Is there any place which you have really liked?

RM :I have visited Mumbai, Hyderabad, Chennai, Bangalore , Agra, Jaipurs, Kochi, Bhubaneswar. But I really liked Mumbai. It is somewhat like Brazil. However life in Delhi is very easy.

SDG: What are the things you really disliked in India?

RM :Nothing ,as such, apart from the traffic and corruption. But I must say one thing. The way the foreign tourists are being treated in India is really unpardonable. India Govt charge $20 from Indian tourist whereas it is only Rs 20 from Indian tourist i.e. they are charging 50 times more from a foreign tourist. Once I went to Bhubaneswar with my wife(ambassador) to see a temple. It is a simple temple. It took only 10 minutes to see the temple. There were no plates /signboards explaining the history ,architecture describing the temple. They charged Rs 250/- per head from us. But from an Indian tourist they charged only Rs 1/- per head !!!! We were really disgusted. You have to understand one thing that most of the tourists are not millionaire .The other day we went to see the Humayun Tomb, Qutub Minar, there is no clean bathroom, guides are charging exorbitantly. If you want to buy a book , to know the history it is not there. If you want to buy a T shirt it is not available. There is no restaurant. You don’t know how to sell. If you go to a distance of 250 Km(e.g. Jim Corbett Park) it will take 5.5 hrs to reach there, because roads are in terrible shape.. If you go to any tourist place in West all these are available. Moreover hotel tariffs are exorbitant. Just beside our Embassy there is Taj Mahal hotel, which is 5 star hotel. A room costs $ 250.Since we are regularly putting up our guests over there we have a special deal of $150.Most of the time there is occupancy of 30%. Although India has a fascinating history you have not been able to market your country, which is shown in the occupancy rates. Few years back we went to Bangkok, Cambodia. We stayed in a beautiful hotel in the middle of a lake, near Ankor Wat, for $60 with free breakfast and dinner!!

Similarly I fail to understand the Govt policy. All the Taxis in Brazil were asked to convert into CNG ,but not by force ,unlike what happened in Delhi. Now the taxi drivers in Delhi are having sleepless nights because of the long queue in front of gas station. You enforce a law and now suddenly realize that there is not enough gas stations. In Brazil it was not made compulsory. Just because it was cheap everybody voluntarily converted it into CNG. Then car owners were asked to convert .So the process was gradual.

Of course I do not like cricket!! A game should be maximum 2 hrs. This game was brought to India by Britishers, since they did not have much work to do in India. After few hours ,you take lunch. In between there is drinks. Then you go for a short nap in the name of tea and again come back for further few hours of the game. Do you call it a game? I said this to my good friend Abbas Ali Baig. He told me to comment on the game you have to understand the game. I told him I know the rules of cricket, but I really do not understand the game .

SDG: What are the things you like?

RM : I really like Indian classical music, Indian history. Shobha Narayan and Sonal Man Singh are our personal friends.